Natko Stipanicev is an animation film director from Split (Croatia). His first CWC-residency was with the French trapeze artist Bambou Monnet in June 2021 in Ghent (Belgium). We meet in the lounge of a hotel in Copenhagen (Denmark) in August 2021. ‘The power of circus lies in the physicality and pushing the boundaries of the human body. If you really want to narrate something, you can use a more suitable art form like theatre or film.’
Did you know circus before?
I wasn’t very much acquainted with circus. I knew Cirque du Soleil, that’s about it. And I knew Antonia Kuzmanic (from Room100, a circus structure in Split, Croatia). I had a slight idea what they are doing with Room100.
What were your expectations regarding this project?
They were not big. I didn’t know what to expect. I was kind of afraid; will I meet the other’s expectations? But it turned out to be a nice experience.
As you didn’t really know circus, why did you apply for the project?
I wanted to try something different. I got fed up doing my kind of work, animated film. Doing that, whole alone, in my small office/apartment, basically in my living room, without… I got fed up from the loner’s work, I wanted to do something with other people, something different. So when Antonia suggested to apply, I thought it was a good idea to jump into the fire.
Did you have experience with cross-disciplinary work before?
Mmm, no, not much. Only in the film area, with actors, animated experimental film, camera film and documentaries, but that’s all in the same sector. Or music: I make my own music for my films, but that’s not cross-disciplinary at all.
Your first residency for CWC was with Bambou Monnet. What did you explore?
We wanted to explore two paths: to put animation into circus and to put circus into animation (see also their logbook). Our first idea of ‘animation into circus’ was some sort of shadow play, with Bambou as a live actor interacting with a virtual one – both as shadow figures, so it would have been difficult to see what is real and what’s not. But this idea didn’t really connect with us, especially because it had big technical needs; a huge canvas, strong light, a big projector… which we didn’t have in Ghent. Something in between the two paths was that I filmed Bambou doing her trapeze tricks, then put this footage into a computer and with the help of artificial intelligence we could apply her movements onto 3D puppets. We got some very crazy experimental results – it opened huge possibilities to explore further. But we stopped because it wasn’t a real collaboration. Bambou had to do her tricks and the rest of the process was for me, quite dull work behind the computer, with Bambou sitting next to me and just watching what I did, so it wasn’t fun at all.
We got some crazy experimental results – it opened huge possibilities to explore further. But we stopped this path because it wasn’t a real collaboration.
So the first days can’t be called a real success.
It all changed when we decided to follow the path of putting circus into animation. With the stop-motion technique, or pixilation, we dived into a real collaboration. We spent the 8 remaining days of our residency on this path.
Can you tell some more about your stop-motion adventures?
This technique is basically done by taking picture by picture, then you put these pictures in a row – approx. 12 pictures per second – and so you get the feeling of motion. When you take a human as an actor, or better: as a puppet in the stop-motion, then we speak of pixilation. With Bambou we found out that the most interesting way of pixilation was when Bambou was lying on the ground and the camera was fixed on the ceiling. For every picture I moved Bambou’s body in the right position – after a while Bambou got the hand of it and could move her body in the right position herself; she understood the nature of animation. In the end we had 4 minutes of animation, good for approx. 2800 pictures.
Are there important lessons or insights you’ve had thanks to the residency?
I don’t know if it’s a lesson, but I really felt relieved to go abroad outside my comfort zone. To go somewhere completely unknown and work with other people. Bambou and I found a common language quite easily. It was a relief for me, in the artistic practice, to have a partner and believe in this project and work together… I miss that in my life, this type of teamwork, spending your days together with a common goal. I was really sad when the residency ended.
So are you planning to do more teamwork in the future?
Yes, definitely. More cooperation with other people.
Also cross-disciplinary?
Well, why not? I’m getting tired – although this is a harsh word, but I think I can use it – I’m getting tired of animated films, because it’s really slow and hideous work behind a computer. Anything going beyond that is nice. I need more teamwork in my life.
Until now you were a loner?
Yes, and when I did something with other people, it was not together: I give a job to someone and after a few days that person delivers. It’s not a real cooperation. But that’s the nature of my work, of animated film. If I were a circus artist it would have been totally different. Working together towards a show, it must be great. If felt a slight thrill of it during the residency, even though Bambou and I made a stop-motion film and not a show. But I felt the thrill of the circus nature of work.
What do you think of circus now you know it a little bit?
It’s a great physical activity for youth to be involved in. If I was a kid and had circus possibilities – a circus school nearby, like the one we visited in Mechelen (Circolito, red.) – I would have loved it. It’s a creative and amazing physical activity.
And circus as an art form?
Well, it is an art form. I like how it’s pushing the boundaries of physicality, of the human body. In that way I also admire circus artists. I can see the beauty of it, and the preoccupation of the people who practice circus. As an art form circus is very similar to dance. But I’m a little bit sceptic too; I’m not so interested in circus as a narrative form. Like I’m not interested in dance as a narrative form. The power lies in the physicality and pushing the boundaries of the human body. If you really want to narrate something, you can use a more suitable art form like theatre or film.
The power of circus lies in the physicality and pushing the boundaries of the human body. If you really want to narrate something, you can use a more suitable art form like theatre or film.
Did you and Bambou make a narrative in your pixilation movie?
There is a slight narrative, but this wasn’t the initial goal of our research. We tried to explore all the possibilities of playing with the idea of gravity and provoking it. We wanted to explore these possibilities and put them into a film. We also wanted to have a gradation in it: start with very simple things and then evolve to more complex tricks, all involving the idea of (playing with) gravity. Unfortunately we didn’t have more time. We had more ideas, but not enough time.
What would you have done if you had more time?
Well, because it is a film we could have integrated more narration into it. We would have dived more into meanings. We could have provoked more questions. More imagination with the idea of gravity.
Is this the big advantage of combining film and circus: that you can introduce a real narrative?
First of all, I don’t think circus has no narrative. There can be good narratives in circus, especially when there are clowns involved. But, for example, when you only have a trapeze, you can’t have complex narratives. Mixing it with animation you suddenly have a lot more possibilities. Film and animation have a more controlled environment. It’s not a live show for a live audience. There is time for preparation, trial and errors, post-production, sound effects, … to improve the narrative.
Can you say that the film making process was dominant in your residency? Circus was used to make a film, not the other way round.
Yes, in that way that’s true. But as I said, we wanted to explore two paths: to put animation into circus and to put circus into animation. Our stop-motion movie is indeed putting circus into animation. Our end product is a film, with trapeze as a tool. One of the great things about animation is that it helps us to do something that is not possible in real life. In fancy words: we pushed the boundaries of the trapeze. We searched for the limits of it. We tried to do impossible tricks and go beyond reality. We went into the absurd of the trapeze.
We pushed the boundaries of the trapeze. We searched for the limits of it. We tried to do impossible tricks and go beyond reality. We went into the absurd of the trapeze.
An interesting detail about the animation of trapeze is that you had to exaggerate the movements of Bambou. Even the basic swinging from left to right is much more pronounced in the animation than in real life.
Yes. That’s one of the main principles of animation: if you want animation to look good, you have to exaggerate. If you keep it normal, it wouldn’t be so convincing. For example, if you convert the video footage of an actor walking down the street into animation, without any adjustments, it will be really boring. It even won’t be real animation.
This principle of exaggeration makes me think of circus. Lots of circus shows are all about exaggerating, especially in the classical scene…
Lots of drama, yes.
What will you take with you in your future career thanks to this residency? You already mentioned teamwork.
Well, I had never tried stop-motion or pixilation before. I was primarily doing 3D animation with the computer. But I really like doing stop-motion because there’s a connection with the real world. In 3D animation you’re just staring at the screen.
If an animation artist and a circus artist would like to work together, what would your advice be?
(long pause) I would tell the circus artist that animation takes a lot of time and patience. And to the animation guy I would say that circus needs a lot of strength. Circus artists can’t perform their tricks 15 times in a row, or slowly, or…
Last question. What do you expect from the second residency, with another circus artist?
Well, I have to say I was really skeptical about the first residency – I didn’t know what to expect with a trapeze artist. But the residency surprised me, and I really enjoyed working with Bambou. There was also a lot of luck involved. Our end result was totally different from the initial ideas we had before the residency started… For the next residency, again I don’t know what to expect. Again I’m skeptical and afraid. Maybe that’s my nature.
Interview by Maarten Verhelst (August 2021)